Author Topic: Charles Herreshoff One Design?  (Read 20333 times)

Adam

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Charles Herreshoff One Design?
« on: April 09, 2009, 07:22:56 PM »
I love looking through the on-line NYT's yacht racing records of the HMCo period - a real treasure trove of how these boats raced - which boats and skippers were "hot". Here is an interesting one - Out of Larchmont YC in 1903 it lists two boats in a "Charles Herreshoff One Design" class - Lively and Hope. I originally thought these were 15's (because of Hope), but I see no "Lively" listed in the Registry.

What was a "Charles Herreshoff One Design"?

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9B05E5D71739E433A25755C1A96E9C946297D6CF

Steve

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Re: Charles Herreshoff One Design?
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2009, 07:43:26 PM »
The NYT archive is one of my favorite places too.  It is amazing what you can get from those thousands of articles if you spend the time.  Cold winter Sunday AM with a cup of coffee ...

I don't THINK these are HMCo 15-footers.  There were several 15-foot classes back in the day, but I am pretty sure in 1903 the HMCo boats were only at Beverly.  However, the names HOPE and Herreshoff are a cause for pause.  I have never heard of a LIVELY either, but a little digging never hurts.

Adam

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Re: Charles Herreshoff One Design?
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2009, 07:47:38 PM »
Now I'm doing this from memory.... Didn't C. F. Herreshoff (Son of James I think - not NGF's Father) design boats on LI? Wonder if these were his....

Steve

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Re: Charles Herreshoff One Design?
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2009, 08:32:43 PM »
I have a similar memory, and no research in front of me.  But .... the older you get, the less you can rely on that memory   >:(

HerreshoffHistory

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Re: Charles Herreshoff One Design?
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2009, 09:52:51 PM »
C. F. Herreshoff was indeed the son of James Brown Herreshoff, the oldest brother of N. G. Herreshoff. This is the Californian branch of the family.

"Charles Frederick, born May 28, 1880, at Nice, France; spent his childhood at Bristol, where from 1883 to 1893 he attended the local public schools; like his older brother, he then went to Coronado, Cal., but did not remain to pursue his studies at the university there; on the contrary, he resumed to the East and studied the subject of designing at Bristol for a time and later went to Baltimore, where he was employed by the Maryland Steel Company; from there journeyed to Glasgow, Scotland, where he entered the famous university and took a special course in naval architecture; in the year 1902 he returned to America and lived for a time in New York City, but afterward took up his abode at Bridgeport, Conn.; he was engaged in designing motor boats and high speed gasoline engines, in which he displayed the characteristic skill of the family. While taking his university course in Glasgow, he designed a racing sloop which beat all her competitors; he attained the same success later at home with motor boats; his "Den" proved to be the fastest boat of that period in the world; later he carried his remarkable success into the automobile field, and while living in Detroit designed and manufactured a car named the "Herreshoff," which became well known in this country for speed and other good qualities. CharIes Frederick Herreshoff married April 9, 1902, Elizabeth Harrison McCormick, of New York City, where she was born Feb. 11, 1884; two children have been born of this union: Allan Stuart in New York City, Feb. 8, 1903, and Elizabeth, June 22, 1904; in 1908 a separation led to a divorce between him and his wile, and he remarried in 1912, Edna May Burt, of Detroit, and they now reside in Coronado, Cal." (Source: Bicknell, Thomas Williams, 1834-1925. The History of the State of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations. Volume 4. American Historical Society: New York, 1920.)

Adam

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Re: Charles Herreshoff One Design?
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2009, 02:16:39 AM »
If I remember correctly NGH didnt like him because of his father (resented James) - he designed a boat after a family 'argument' with NGH - and beat NGH. Which PO'd him even more.

Young whippersnapper...Kids these days.  :)

Regardless - I still wonder what a Charles Herreshoff One Design was....

Steve

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Re: Charles Herreshoff One Design?
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2009, 01:41:54 PM »
Now that is an interesting story ... where did you hear that?
« Last Edit: April 13, 2009, 12:03:13 PM by Steve »

Adam

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Re: Charles Herreshoff One Design?
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2009, 10:49:06 PM »
I Believe it was Samuel Carter III's "The Boat Builders Of Bristol"....

Yep - Pg. 154....He Built a boat called San Toy, which NGH claimed was below the standards of the HMCo - so they refused to record her dimentions (and I suppose give her a hull #). Charles challenged NGH to a race - which Nat accepted in Kildee. Charles beat him.....He left Bristol soon after - and had a "distinguished career as a Navel arch.".
« Last Edit: April 10, 2009, 11:14:29 PM by Adam »

HerreshoffHistory

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Re: Charles Herreshoff One Design?
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2009, 09:04:07 PM »
Yes, San Toy was built in Bristol, but was she built at HMCo? No plans of her seem to have survived at M.I.T.

She did sail against Kildee, on September 12, 1900, a day after she had been launched, and she won on elapsed time. I doubt that it was useful race in terms of comparison, though. San Toy was a superlightweight dinghy, LOA 19' 6", LWL 12', beam 6', compared to Kildee, a 24' 10" LOA keelboat with a LWL of 17' 8" and a beam of 4' 2".

Totally different boats and Kildee ran away from San Toy upwind, while San Toy reeled her in downwind. Nonetheless, the race did indeed gain notoriety.

Adam

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Re: Charles Herreshoff One Design?
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2009, 01:28:15 PM »
The book seems to imply she was built at HMCo. for one of the Herreshoff's out of NY I believe...Nat and John did not like her and said she should be destroyed as she was not up to their standards....At the very least she was built in Bristol.

I'd still like to know what a Charles Herreshoff one design is.... ???

Adam

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Re: Charles Herreshoff One Design?
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2009, 03:17:51 PM »
I just read that Charles Mower - the editor for Rudder, and a NA himself - Designed a FI One Design, that was "Nearly Identical to the Sidney Herreshoff or Charles Herreshoff Models...". Interesting comments about who should get "credit" for the design, as well as the fact that Charles Herreshoff either had a hand in Sidney’s design, or designed one himself. I assume the FI Club asked a number of designers for a "new" class and had many contenders....

BTW this is a Wiki so take the comments with a grain of salt - but I thought it was worth getting your comments on....

"Fishers Island One Designs:
Since they were built in 1923, the Fishers Island One Designs, as the Class A's were originally called, have been enthusiastically raced, day sailed and cruised on Fishers Island Sound. The fleet has anchored in only two harbors. Hay Harbor, Fishers Island, New York, from 1923-33 and then the Lagoon at Groton Long Point, Conn., from 1933 to the present. The original model of these boats is owned by Mildred Pastula (grand daughter of Mower) and is nearly identical to the Sidney or Charles Herreshoff models. The two designers were acquainted and both worked on the Fishers Island boats, so the similarity is not a surprise, but who should get the credit remains an area of contention.

The Mower model is in poor shape after years on neglect and flood damaged from the 1992 storm, much like many of the other half models that were stored in Charles P. Mower's basement."

Interesting that the History of Mowers FI One Design boats does not state this discrepancy (as well as the design is very different then the FI23's and 31's - at least from the dimensions) - http://www.glpyc.org/fisher_island_one_designs.htm