Ellen R-4

[richincident]

I learned to sail on the Great South Bay in the 60's, and started out on Cape Cod Baby Knockabouts, later sailing CC Mercury's and later, higher performance boats. During that period we sailed in GSBYRA races and  the most gorgeous sailboat I ever saw was the highest rated boat on the bay. She was the Ellen, her number was R-4, and my memory says she was a Herreshoff design. She was probably 30 or so feet LOA and gaff rigged. (Maybe she had a bowsprit?)

I vividly recall a day in which 70 of the 180 boats sailing at Bay Shore Yacht Club capsized during a race. I was sailing a Mercury, which could not plane due to her round and tubby design, so she was wallowing at hull speed down a broad reach leg. Coming up behind but on the outside triangel were the Ellen and a lovely powder blue Raven, the EEL. The two boats roared up toward the jibe mark, both planing and throwing enormous wakes. When they reached the mark (their second time around!) it was littered with boats of all kinds that had tried to jibe and flipped. Both boats neatly headed up and tacked, so I did that as well and survived to win the class.

But the Ellen has remained in my memory ever since. There were S-Boats in those races as well, but NOTHING looked quite like the Ellen, she was gorgeous. Anyone know anything about her? She and the Eel died together in a boatyard fire sometime in the 80's (or 70's), so she is no longer out there, but what an amazing boat! Was she a Herreshoff? NGH or LFH? THANKS I love this website! 

[richincident]

Oops. More facts. She was the scratch boat, and she belonged to someone named MacInerney. Perhaps she was more like 35' long, as I know that R-boats are a bit bigger. And lastly I THINK she had a centerboard, though I am guessing on that.

[Adam]

Hi Rich - I also grew up sailing on GSB - Narrasketuck - during that same period - A bit later maybe (mid 70's). I don't recall her but I was quite a bit West where the bay was much shallower and rarely saw keel boats race - with the exception of the Brooks families 12 1/2's. I have a bunch of the GSBYRA year books - and yes ELLEN was an R Class - Owned by John McInerney out of Sayville. Th R's were popular out there in the late 30's through the early 1960's.

Jon Brooks is on this site and his father Owen was commodore of the GSBYRA in the late 60's (as well as several member YC's) - he knows his Herreshoff's. If Jon see's this he might comment with more.

BTW - the Raven EEL was owned by Knute Lee out of Bellport - and she had a very winning record in the late 60's right though the early 80's.

[Adam]

OK a bit more for you - Scott Rohrer is the historian for the R-Class - he's out on the west cost. Sometime a go he sent me a listing of his registry for R's. Below are the "East coast" boats. You will notice R-4 is listed as SPRY, but R-14, COTTON BLOSSOM is listed as also having been sallied as ELLEN. So either SPRY (R-4) is ELLEN and he had it wrong, or maybe the ELLEN you knew was R-14... Now an  R-Cotton Blossom Later raced on the Great Lakes (R-54)- and I believe is lost - but a fiberglass mold was made of her in 1967. It's unclear if there are two Cotton Blossoms, or if they are the same (which would support ELLEN and SPRY are the same boat). I'll E-Mail Scott and see if he could give some more details.

EASTERN BOATS

R-2  DANDELION
R-3  VITESSE
R-4  SPRY
R-5  NORSEMAN
R-7  STRANGER II
R-8  TOBASCO
R-8  MERMERUS
R-8  MOJOLA (ex. BONNIE LASSIE?)
R-10   GYPSY*
R-12   QUIVER
R-14   COTTON BLOSSOM (ex. ELLEN?)
R-16   YANKEE3
R-16   LIVE YANKEE
R-18   FANTOME
R-20   ANITA
R-21   UNIS II
R-22   ALERT III
R-25   ACADIA
R-222   VIVIA
R-37   ALOUETTE
R-40    GAMECOCK
R-41   FIFI
R-42   MANHASSET II
R-43   DORESS
R-43   TROJAN
R-44   BARBARA   
R-46   ASTRILD
R-47   ARDETTE
R-50   BOB KAT
R-51   REDHEAD
R-51   KATHEA II
R-52   QUIVER
R-53   ALARM
R-54   PUFFIN
R-57   ARDELLE
R-58   SHADOW

*ALSO RACED AS R-1
3YANKEE ALSO RACED AS R-18 ON THE GREAT LAKES

[richincident]

GREAT List!

Knute Lee and John McInerney were quite a pair. I never knew them but you could see how much fun they had with those super boats. One of them had a curved hunting horn and would blow it at various points getting ready for the races. GORGEOUS boats!

I keep wondering what happened to all the Ravens, for that matter. They needed a big crew on a heavy day, but they were quite remarkable planing hulls. I think there were four S-Class boats during that period--one of them was owned and sailed by someone who was totally unable to handle her, and we all kept our eyes open when she was docking. Ellen always looked like a queen coming through the fleet of smaller boats!

GSB is very shallow and I am pretty sure that Ellen had a centerboard rather than a keel--though I suppose it would have been possible that she had some kind of shallow keel. Seems to me that some of the R-boats had centerboards.

[Adam]

OK - Here you go - From Scott:

"Spry was a Johan Anker des., built by Anker & Jensen in Norway, delivered early for the ’25 season.  Ellen was a Burgess, built by Lawleys and the two raced against each other at Eastern Y. C. in June of ‘25.   

On paper, Ellen and Cotton Blossom appear to be at least near sisters (along with Esprit), both Lawley-built, <Burgess designed>.  Neither was Lloyd’s-registered.  I do know that, in 1962, Cotton Blossom was numbered 14 and racing out of Cleveland Y. C.  She was cut up later after the tooling for the glass boats was completed (1967).   Live Yankee was cut there up not much later."

Note - all R Boats are Keel Boats - no ceterboards.

[richincident]

WOW!

Thanks Scot! Actual facts are ruining my memories of what I saw. Makes perfect sense that Ellen had a keel! Now I will have to look for her in the Burgess designs. I was so sure that people said she was an R AND designed by Herreshoff, but perhaps I only compared her to the lovely and similar Universal rule designs that I have seen in books and thought she had to be an NGH design.

I do remain a bit confused about the numbers. WAS Spry Ellen? Or are we talking about two different boats? Ellen was definitely NOT Cotton Blossom, because she perished in a boatyard fire in Sayville. So that remains a question I guess. Sounds like Spry MUST have become Ellen at some point.

THANKS for clearing this up!

Richard

"Spry was a Johan Anker des., built by Anker & Jensen in Norway, delivered early for the ’25 season.  Ellen was a Burgess, built by Lawleys and the two raced against each other at Eastern Y. C. in June of ‘25.   

On paper, Ellen and Cotton Blossom appear to be at least near sisters (along with Esprit), both Lawley-built, <Burgess designed>.  Neither was Lloyd’s-registered.  I do know that, in 1962, Cotton Blossom was numbered 14 and racing out of Cleveland Y. C.  She was cut up later after the tooling for the glass boats was completed (1967).   Live Yankee was cut there up not much later."

Note - all R Boats are Keel Boats - no ceterboards.

[Steve]

Interesting that SCAPA doesn't show up on Scott's list.  By any chance do we know the name of Folz's boat?

[Adam]

Rich - My understanding is there are three hulls that were built from the same Burgess design, and all built at Lawley's (Just up the road from us in fact) - ELLEN, COTTON BLOSSOM, and ESPRIT. SPRY was a different design.

Side note - COTTON BLOSSOM is commonly known as COTTON BLOSSOM "1" as this was the first of the four famous Cotton Blossoms to be built for the Wheeler family. The second is the "Q" boat that was just restored (and owned by) Dennis Conner. (see: http://www.toandos.com/DCole7.html). There is a good shot of Cotton Blossom IV by Fortier over at the New Bedford Whaling Museum "FLICKR" site.

Steve - It's on his list but under the Great Lakes boats I believe. Seems she raced out there most of her career.

[richincident]

So then there were two R-4's. Spry AND Ellen? Not quite understanding that part. Unless I have totally lost the correct number for Ellen in some corroded memory somewhere. Anyone know where pictures of those Burgess designed R-boats can be found? I have been looking but so far no luck.

[Adam]

Sail numbers are notorious for being "meangless" with these older boats. Unlike today where numbers can be assigned and stick with a boat through her whole career, this is not the case with these boats. Numbers are usually assigned locally - at the YC level. So there can be (and in this case there are) many R-boats using the R-4 sail #.....As for Pic's - I can check some of the books - I'd bet the Rosenfeld's have a fair share:

[richincident]

Ellen had a gaff rig--I may try dropping a line to someone at the GSBYRA about her and see if there is any history there. THIS BOARD IS A GREAT RESOURCE. Thanks for your help Adam! I was thinking that the numbering would be pretty fixed, but I guess I was wrong there as well.

I will let you know if I come up with more information.

[Jon R]

Greetings all.

Further to Scott's list.. In my endless research on Frank C. Paine, my great grandfather, and one time design partner of W. Starling Burgess and employer of LFH, chasing boats down by sail number is a dubious prospect at best.  FCP designed and sailed no less than three Rs all named Gypsy, and may well have kept sail numbers.

I know that he also owned several six meters two of which were US #1: Jeanie designed by Burgess and built by Paine, Burgess and LFH, and Sakie designed by FCP built at Lawley's.

I know it does not help so much but I have found it hard to find even contemporary sources that are reliable.

Jon

[Adam]

Jon - Just an FYI - on your Great Grandfather - If you have not already you might want to read John Parkinson Jr.'s "Yarns for Davy Jones" (1966). There is more then a bit about Paine (and Herreshoff as well).  Great stories of racing "Highland Light"... I'm re-reading it myself right now....

[vicikibo]

The Ellen R-4 was a Great South Bay R boat She was modled and built by Gilbert M Smith in 1910 for his use. When built she was named Senta. She was 33'-6" LOA. Gil  owned her from 1910 till 1937. She was owned from 1938 until around 1960. She was then purchased by John McInerney. John raced her very sucessfuly, winning the class A hadicap for many  years,untill destroyed in the fire at Dough Westens fire.