Messages

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Miscellaneous Herreshoff Topics / Re: The numbers story....

« on: January 28, 2010, 02:17:09 PM »

Aha!

I have occasionally had "visions" of Reliance sailing in Hingham Bay (where she would be lying on her side in reality, since there is not enough water for her). Has anyone compared Reliance to the recent ACC's or or the Volvo Open racers? I imagine that computers could now put together a lovely match race between any two boats of any era. I am not much of a fan of the ACC boats, though I have to admit they have that same "all for day racing" kind of design that the boats of the 1890's had. The VOR open designs are remarkable for being extreme dinghies that someone (a crazy someone) can drive around the planet.

So with the numbers, have these "virtual" races been staged?

THANKS for all of the expertise on this board.

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Specific Herreshoff Vessels / Re: Ellen R-4

« on: November 05, 2009, 01:47:00 PM »

Ellen had a gaff rig--I may try dropping a line to someone at the GSBYRA about her and see if there is any history there. THIS BOARD IS A GREAT RESOURCE. Thanks for your help Adam! I was thinking that the numbering would be pretty fixed, but I guess I was wrong there as well.

I will let you know if I come up with more information.

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Specific Herreshoff Vessels / Re: Ellen R-4

« on: November 04, 2009, 01:53:25 PM »

So then there were two R-4's. Spry AND Ellen? Not quite understanding that part. Unless I have totally lost the correct number for Ellen in some corroded memory somewhere. Anyone know where pictures of those Burgess designed R-boats can be found? I have been looking but so far no luck.

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Specific Herreshoff Vessels / Re: LFH International Four(?)

« on: November 03, 2009, 02:01:09 PM »

I will go down and measure the boat and see what the length is. The more I think about the way she was built and the hardware the more I think that she was built by a yard, not a home builder. The hull doesn't really look like plywood to me, and the keel is a LARGE fin keel.

On the other hand my other thread led away from HMC0 and perhaps this one will as well. I suppose there are no bad questions--one way or another this is a lovely boat!

I have Sensible Cruising Designs here with me, but I don't see a boat quite like that one in it. I don't think she IS a "sensible cruising design." More of a racer, as you said, a boat to sail FAST with a tiny cuddy for shelter.

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Specific Herreshoff Vessels / Re: Ellen R-4

« on: November 03, 2009, 01:50:34 PM »

WOW!

Thanks Scot! Actual facts are ruining my memories of what I saw. Makes perfect sense that Ellen had a keel! Now I will have to look for her in the Burgess designs. I was so sure that people said she was an R AND designed by Herreshoff, but perhaps I only compared her to the lovely and similar Universal rule designs that I have seen in books and thought she had to be an NGH design.

I do remain a bit confused about the numbers. WAS Spry Ellen? Or are we talking about two different boats? Ellen was definitely NOT Cotton Blossom, because she perished in a boatyard fire in Sayville. So that remains a question I guess. Sounds like Spry MUST have become Ellen at some point.

THANKS for clearing this up!

Richard

"Spry was a Johan Anker des., built by Anker & Jensen in Norway, delivered early for the ’25 season.  Ellen was a Burgess, built by Lawleys and the two raced against each other at Eastern Y. C. in June of ‘25.   

On paper, Ellen and Cotton Blossom appear to be at least near sisters (along with Esprit), both Lawley-built, <Burgess designed>.  Neither was Lloyd’s-registered.  I do know that, in 1962, Cotton Blossom was numbered 14 and racing out of Cleveland Y. C.  She was cut up later after the tooling for the glass boats was completed (1967).   Live Yankee was cut there up not much later."

Note - all R Boats are Keel Boats - no ceterboards.

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Specific Herreshoff Vessels / Re: LFH International Four(?)

« on: November 02, 2009, 05:03:45 AM »

I will take a look. How about that--we ARE neighbors. I was actually from Pittsburgh--my family summered on Fire Island for years in Saltaire. It was a great place to learn how to sail. These days I am sailing a Soverel 28 out of Hingham and crewing on a J-109 for racing. My boat has very traditional lines and is quite lovely--but nowhere near as elegant as the Herreshoff designs.

I have always loved the Herreshoff boats and I make pilgrimages to Bristol periodically to admire the boats--and of course, I have many books about the Herreshoff family and their designs. I keep wishing for a computer generated race between Reliance and the modern cup boats.

Thanks for your help--I am confident that Ellen was R-4, so she must have been SPRY. Was she an NGH design? I guess we have to wait for your friend with the R-Boat expertise to get a history on SPRY.

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Specific Herreshoff Vessels / Re: Ellen R-4

« on: November 02, 2009, 04:53:20 AM »

GREAT List!

Knute Lee and John McInerney were quite a pair. I never knew them but you could see how much fun they had with those super boats. One of them had a curved hunting horn and would blow it at various points getting ready for the races. GORGEOUS boats!

I keep wondering what happened to all the Ravens, for that matter. They needed a big crew on a heavy day, but they were quite remarkable planing hulls. I think there were four S-Class boats during that period--one of them was owned and sailed by someone who was totally unable to handle her, and we all kept our eyes open when she was docking. Ellen always looked like a queen coming through the fleet of smaller boats!

GSB is very shallow and I am pretty sure that Ellen had a centerboard rather than a keel--though I suppose it would have been possible that she had some kind of shallow keel. Seems to me that some of the R-boats had centerboards.

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Specific Herreshoff Vessels / LFH International Four(?)

« on: November 02, 2009, 01:28:34 AM »

My neighbor has a lovely old boat built of plywood. He last sailed her in the 80's or so, and at that time she was a racer. He has all of her sails and rigging, and apparently possesses the skills to restore her, but she is presently in need of major work.

Here's his story. This boat was built here in Hingham sometime in the late 40's. He has been told she is an LFH design. There were only apparently 14 of these botas built--he has number 4. He has been told that the boat was designed by LFH to compete with Ray Hunt's 210 design of the same era. I dropped a note the the Herreshoff museum and learned that no such boat is in the list of LFH designs.

The boat has a canoe stern, a very Herreshoff cuddy design, and lots of curves, which probably made her difficult to produce for most home builders. The design never caught on, but there were two of them racing here in the 80's. Whatever they were.

Ideas? Clearly NOT built by HMCO but still an interesting design.

He is looking to sell this boat, and the mast, boom, and gaff along with canvas sails for another Herreshoff boat.

Couldn't get the photos to upload properly. Here's a link to photobucket:

http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww161/Richincident/p_00141.jpg

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Specific Herreshoff Vessels / Re: Ellen R-4

« on: November 01, 2009, 04:54:45 PM »

Oops. More facts. She was the scratch boat, and she belonged to someone named MacInerney. Perhaps she was more like 35' long, as I know that R-boats are a bit bigger. And lastly I THINK she had a centerboard, though I am guessing on that.

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Specific Herreshoff Vessels / Ellen R-4

« on: November 01, 2009, 03:15:34 PM »

I learned to sail on the Great South Bay in the 60's, and started out on Cape Cod Baby Knockabouts, later sailing CC Mercury's and later, higher performance boats. During that period we sailed in GSBYRA races and  the most gorgeous sailboat I ever saw was the highest rated boat on the bay. She was the Ellen, her number was R-4, and my memory says she was a Herreshoff design. She was probably 30 or so feet LOA and gaff rigged. (Maybe she had a bowsprit?)

I vividly recall a day in which 70 of the 180 boats sailing at Bay Shore Yacht Club capsized during a race. I was sailing a Mercury, which could not plane due to her round and tubby design, so she was wallowing at hull speed down a broad reach leg. Coming up behind but on the outside triangel were the Ellen and a lovely powder blue Raven, the EEL. The two boats roared up toward the jibe mark, both planing and throwing enormous wakes. When they reached the mark (their second time around!) it was littered with boats of all kinds that had tried to jibe and flipped. Both boats neatly headed up and tacked, so I did that as well and survived to win the class.

But the Ellen has remained in my memory ever since. There were S-Boats in those races as well, but NOTHING looked quite like the Ellen, she was gorgeous. Anyone know anything about her? She and the Eel died together in a boatyard fire sometime in the 80's (or 70's), so she is no longer out there, but what an amazing boat! Was she a Herreshoff? NGH or LFH? THANKS I love this website!