Re: A "New" Buzzards Bay 15 Has Been Found And Is Available

[Robert (Alerion Sailor)]

Well, I know own Buccaneer and look forward to the restoration. I have some question that I hope someone can help with the answers.

The registry says Buccaneer was built in 1917. My question is was it built before or after the sale of the HMC ?

Is it possible to obtain records ie (contract copy) from 1917 that can be obtained for my personal files.

Robert

[Adam]

Don't have an exact date but the reorg of the stockholders was in "early" 1917. The construction record says 1/22/17 contract date. Unfortunately contract dates don't mean when she was built, or even started - In fact there could be many months between the contract and when work started. I have never seen an accurate completion date record.

As for the actual contract records - the construction record is published in "The Guide to the Heffenreffer - Herreshoff collection" (MIT). Some of the Hart collection includes "business records" but very little actually exists.

[Steve]

I would be willing to wager that you won't be able to find a copy of your contract.  Unfortunately, not much in the way of business records have survived.  The company wasn't sold at auction to the Haffenreffer's until 1924, though the preceding years were a bit tumultuous from a business perspective.

Adam is spot on about the contract date.  I would expect that a 1/22 order date implied she was to be delivered to Beverly in the spring in time for the new sailing season.  Delivery dates are rarely recorded.  I have been trying to compile them from multiple sources, but the information is till quite spotty.  I know HerreshoffHistory is also working on thisd and may have a more complete set of results than I do.  That said, I don't have a delivery date for BUCCANEER.

[HerreshoffHistory]

>The registry says Buccaneer was built in 1917. My question is was it
>built before or after the sale of the HMC?

#822s Buccaneer was contracted for on January 22, 1917.

By that time, N. G. Herreshoff had already been in negotiations about
the sale of HMCo but without specific results.

In early February 1917 an agreement over the sale of stock was made
and on March 1, 1917 the transfer of stock took place.

I would expect Buccaneer to have been launched in about 1917 thus she
was built right during the sale of HMCo.

[Robert (Alerion Sailor)]

Interesting, so BUCCANEER was delivered to Beverly Yacht Club.

And was contracted and possibly built while HMC still owned by NGH. The time line was very close. I wonder how long it would have taken HMC to actually build BUCCANEER.

So Buccaneer could very well  have been one of the very last boats built under the watch full eye of Captain Nat.

This is very interesting.
thanks

Robert

[HerreshoffHistory]

You are probably right to say that Buccaneer was built at the end of an era.

From March 1917 on a large percenage of the stock of the Herreshoff
Manufacturing Company was held by outsiders, even though N. G.
Herreshoff and his son Sidney would remain substantial stockholders.

N. G. Herreshoff carried the title of President but would go into
"semi-retirement".

I wonder how much he actually supervised the construction of
Buccaneer. She was the 71st of 92 Herreshoff 15s that would eventually
be built and no construction surprises were to be expexted. And the
reorganisation of the company, stockholders meetings and talks to new
personnel and new owners kept N. G. Herreshoff busy.

It'll be probably impossible to find out just how quickly Buccaneer
was built, but expect it to be between 50 and 100 days.

[Robert (Alerion Sailor)]

HerreshoffHistory, is it possible for me to get a copy of the your info you have of the contract date record for #822.

I suppose that could be accurate that Captain Nat might have had his hands full at the time but I think it is also fair to say that BUCCANEER was built at the end of an era.

Maybe if he was a man of routine he found time to make his trips through the shops to clear his thoughts and find some peace of mind and sollice or just greet the men and provide the assurance that the company was secure and jobs were safe. It probably just felt good to tour the shops to see his creations being built as he designed them, this would have given great satisfaction or reminder of his accomplishment.

I wonder which  other boats were contracted and built around this time.

[Robert (Alerion Sailor)]

Just under the cleat that was originally installed mid ship for the main sheet appears to be an H shaped plate. It is directly between the bases for the cleat mounts I can't read it from the pictures but would this be the orginal Herreshoff builders plate. If you can zoom the picture you can just see that there is a plate fastened with about 10 round headed nails. Can anyone verify this as the builder plate. I looks different form the rectangular plate I'm familiar with.

Comparing the two areas of 678 and BUCCANEER it is different, BUCCANEER has what appears to be a narrower piece of trimming that the main sheet cleat is attached to.   Did Herreshoff change their builders plates the an H shaped at anytime? What ever this plate is it also  appears to be fastened the similar type round head nails as 678's builders plate.

[Robert (Alerion Sailor)]

Well I gues I'll have to wait, I'm picking up the boat in the first week of November, so I'll have to wait until then

[Adam]

"HerreshoffHistory, is it possible for me to get a copy of the your info you have of the contract date record for #822."

See:

http://herreshoff.org/store/product70.html

[Adam]

 "H shaped plate...but would this be the orginal Herreshoff builders plate."

No they never did an H shaped plate that I know of. Ovals and squares....

[Adam]

Ya' know Steve this thread has me thinking.... someday someone has got to corner Wendy Goodwin and get into the records she has. I wouldn't be at all surprised if there is a box somewhere at CCSB with bunches of HMCo. busuiness records that havent seen the light of day since '46.

Time for another call?

[Robert (Alerion Sailor)]

Hi Adam, it may not be a HMCo plate but it does look sort of H shaped plate and it does look as though it is fastened with round head nails.

I have no idea how to find out the contract date other than through this web site.

Who else built these boat? could this be a plate of a different manufacturer and maybe it isn't an original HMC boat?

When I compare the 2 stern cock pit trim on BUCCANEER does look to be a a narrower size which would limit the ability to fasten a plate below the cleat.
But the gaff horn look original as well as the pulley's, stern post even the vent plate on the rear floatation compartment looks similar to one I have seen on another boat I think it was ELF..

Yes revewing the other records would be a good idea, for researching things.

I have asked Wendy Hurd if she would have a look and possibly take a close up picture of this area.

Did HMC ever install there plate under the cleat like in the picture of BUCCANEER?

[Robert (Alerion Sailor)]

Adam I think I met you once at HMCo pier one morning about 2-3 years ago I helped you try free up a stuck haulyard flag line on the flag pole on the Pier.

Or a least it was fellow named Adam that I helped that day on the peer, I didn't catch the last name.

Robert

[Adam]

Robert - the link I provided is to a book which has copies of the original HMCo. builders record - which has the contract date info. It is the primary resource for that info because the actual contracts primarily do not exist.

Other then reproductions built in the last 30 years all of the "original" 15's are built by HMCo.but keep in mind that you are dealing with 100+ year old boats that have probably been rebuilt several times so it is not unusual to get variations from the original. Past rebuilds probably did not take authenticity into account. That plate may or may not even be a builders plate -and I doubt it was original to the boat.

Also if you hit the "Document" link above you will see a short paper on the class that Steve wrote which might be helpfull.

The "Adam" you mention was probably Adam Langerman who is Halsey's partner at Herreshoff Designs. He's younger and better looking then I....