Author Topic: herreshoff 18'  (Read 1246247 times)

Cardinal Joe

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Re: herreshoff 18'
« Reply #960 on: March 05, 2013, 06:42:07 AM »








launchmaker

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Re: herreshoff 18'
« Reply #961 on: March 05, 2013, 06:54:37 AM »
The job of a steadying sail is to keep the boat heeled slightly over to leeward like a sailboat when the wind is blowing and the sea is rolling. Without getting into a discussion on how sailboats and sails work, the sail doesn't flop from side to side, rather the wind keeps hitting it from basically one side or the other, depending on wether the wind is on the port or starboard side of the boat  The mast and sail are very small so they don't overpower the boat as it's motoring along as a motorsailer and serve to keep the boat heeled to one side to a manageable degree since you can let the sail out or take it in to get the necessary benefit and reduce rolling.
 
As far as the horizontal canopy, it is there to provide shade and protection from rain. These canopies have been used for thousands of years, at least. If they performed as you are thinking presently, then the owners of the above boats would have removed them before they sank their boats. Correct? The frame is very light in respect to the boat it is covering and has no negative affect on the performance of the vessel in any way. In all my 40+years of boating, I have never seen any instance of a canopy doing anything other than offering protection from the sun or rain. Even with side curtains of clear vinyl installed, I have never seen or heard of a boat flipping, capsizing, etc.

You may have the idea of the canopy as the Brontosaurus steak the waitress put on Fred Flintstone's car at the beginning of the Flintstone's. That 200 lb. steak couldn't have displaced the car with stone tires and all those people. Think more of a canopy mounted to the basket of a tour elephant in India. The wind can blow, the elephant will keep right on walking.

The canopy stanchions in the photo are first mounted to flanges on the cockpit sole as well as the inboard side of the coaming. That eliminates any fore and aft movement of the superstructure, which is very little on this hull type. These hulls cut the water with their narrow, plumb bow cutting the water just below the turn of the stem, bow up, and keep a sharp v angle for 4 or 5 feet before bellying out to almost 8 feet at the beam waterline and leaving off at over 4 feet at the transom. That makes for a boat that doesn't pitch back and forth over it's beam(unless it's an America cat motoring into a heavy chop, the weight of the mast aloft gets a bit of pitch going).

If you want to see some classic canopy tops for boats, you can google search surrey tops or steam launches and click on the images icon near the top and it should display countless boats and their tops. Duffy boats has boats of this length and have both canopy tops as well as full cabin enclosures.

If you go with a Bimini top, they are lightweight, retract easily and are readily available from retail marine stores. How can you go wrong with that, Irv???

Irv Mac Dowell

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Re: herreshoff 18'
« Reply #962 on: March 05, 2013, 03:46:33 PM »
With respect, I noted that a Bimini top would be very useful and entirely appropriate.  Too, the full enclosures shown in subsequent pictures (Is that a Pilot?), seem fine, and would not affect the boat's safety or operation.  I would not take a boat so equipped into any kind of sea, but for placid river cruises in wind and rain, it would be fine.  I must respectfully disagree slightly on your assessment of a steadying sail. Often, on offshore deliveries of sailboats up to 70 feet, we have left the main fully deployed in rolling seas, but with no wind.  As the boat rolls, the sail fills and dumps air, thus slowing the roll to a manageable and comfortable degree. It can be noisy,as it flops about,  but the sail eases the motion.  Even on my 20 foot Caledonia Yawl, the mizzen and main slow the roll somewhat when motoring in a beam sea with no wind. 

My original concern had to do with the arrangement on Harborlite, as shown in Joe's posting.  That looks to be a very heavy frame built of square aluminum that is anchored at only one point on the washboard on each side.  I would be very concerned about that single-point arrangement working loose in a sea and tearing the washboard out, and even causing injury to passengers, should it fall without warning.  My experience in tuna towers in a beam sea, while much higher and in heavier rolling, suggests to me that the torsional forces at work can be extreme. I wonder if such forces, while certainly less extreme, might doom that apparatus to failure.

Best regards,

Irv

Adam

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Re: herreshoff 18'
« Reply #963 on: March 05, 2013, 04:48:36 PM »
I'd have to agree with Mr. MacDowell..... I have spent many a day and night on my Albemarle in strong winds and heavy seas and can attest to the amount of "sailing" she would do with the heavy hardtop and full curtains and the engine off. Even docking can be a challenge with this set-up if the winds are from the wrong direction....In the North East - where these Novi/Catboat type hulls are prevalent - the conditions match these hulls very nicely.... One you start adding canvas and hardtops I think they become compromised somewhat and you begin relegating them to the sheltered areas.  And if that is your location conditions – then it’s fine. Before I would add any large hardtop/canvas type set-up I’d ask the original designer what he/she thinks – in this case a call to Herreshoff Designs would probably give peace of mind for a project of this sort...

launchmaker

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Re: herreshoff 18'
« Reply #964 on: March 06, 2013, 06:02:12 AM »
I don't think I saw the photo of Harbor Light,  now I know exactly why you are saying that rig is heavy, poorly designed, etc. My sincere apology. I think the Brontosaurus steak would definitely take that one down. As far as the steadying sail, I have only seen them used underway in a breeze. I don't personally leave sails up to reduce rolling since I race sailboats in sheltered waters and the condition of the sails are most important. We try to keep the sails from flapping or flopping as much as possible to keep the resins that bind the weave together from breaking, so the shape of the sail doesn't blow out.

If I had a cruiser I might just leave the main up. Does the boom have to swing from side to side to help counter the roll or if the sail does most of the work can you keep the boom hauled to one side?

Irv Mac Dowell

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Re: herreshoff 18'
« Reply #965 on: March 06, 2013, 03:41:02 PM »
In a moderate sea, and very light winds, under power, the main is kept 'midships and the downhaul tight.  With some wind, motor sailing, the traveler might be moved slightly outward.  These are very heavily-built cruising sails, so potential damage is minimal to non existent.

Irv


launchmaker

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Re: herreshoff 18'
« Reply #966 on: March 07, 2013, 04:44:47 AM »
Good answer, Irv. You know what you are talking about. Now I do too.

The boats with the canopy tops are definitely inshore cruisers.

Adam, I don't want to sink my boat with a canopy this time, so I'll take your advice and call Hereeshoff Designs. They might tell me to keep it low and open like it's been in the past. I just wish I hadn't sold the mast, the swing from that pole offset the waves nicely. I never needed the sail set when motoring.

Irv Mac Dowell

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Re: herreshoff 18'
« Reply #967 on: March 07, 2013, 08:01:59 PM »
Launch,

Thanks for the kind words.  The folks who built my Caledonia Yawl outside of Seattle, Grapeview Point Boatworks, have on their website a picture of the Nelson Zimmer launch that Tom and Susanne built a couple of years ago.  I was aboard her last winter when I flew out to arrange final details on my build.  Tom built her as an electric, and originally she was an all open boat.  Because Seattle is temperate, though very wet in winter, Tom added an all around enclosure built of wood and plexiglass for winter and spring use.  If you go to their website, grapeviewpointboatworks.com, you can see pictures of the boat with its enclosure and without.

Best regards,

Irv
« Last Edit: March 07, 2013, 08:06:25 PM by Irv Mac Dowell »

launchmaker

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Re: herreshoff 18'
« Reply #968 on: March 08, 2013, 05:14:26 AM »
I've had their web site saved as a favorite for years now. Your Caledonia Yawl is also one of the best looking designs going. The Zimmer was one  of the inspirations for converting my sailboat hull to power launch. Then I came across this website thanks to Cardinal Joe posting tons of great info about the Harbor Pilot.

Good luck in the search for a Pilot, the hull is great

Cardinal Joe

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Re: herreshoff 18'
« Reply #969 on: March 13, 2013, 06:12:16 AM »
1984 Pilot ................ HULL # 113

Hycoop Mearo

Mar 1 (12 days ago)
 
to me

Joe,
This is the Hull Number for my boat is  ACTHP113M84E

Do you have any other pictures of other Harbour Pilot with a top, the 2 on the web site were helpful.

The only one I ever saw was in Orange Beach, Al.

Thanks,

 Skip

Irv Mac Dowell

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Re: herreshoff 18'
« Reply #970 on: March 13, 2013, 02:41:55 PM »
Hi Joe,

Based on Hycoop's latest posts, it would appear that his boat is not for sale after all. 

Best regards,

Irv

Cardinal Joe

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Re: herreshoff 18'
« Reply #971 on: March 14, 2013, 12:49:47 AM »

H-18 Catboat

Jim Cole <jcole@commandalkon.com>

4:43 PM (1 hour ago)

to me

I Hi Joe,
 
I just purchased an H-18 locally and will pick up the boat next week.  Very thrilled with the boat.  Needs restored, will be my retirement project when I retire.  Information on the boat is not readily available, so thought you might be able to send me in the correct direction with your knowledge:
 
Is any one making spare parts for the boat.  Found 1 E-mail that said that someone had purchased the molds but did not provide the new owners name.  I did locate the OEM sail maker.
 
Do you have any idea who may have supplied the navigation lanterns as seen on the brochure  and also one of the boats in the pictures.  Would be a really nice addition to the boat.
 
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
 
Thanks
 
James F. Cole
 
Materials Manager
 
Command Alkon
 
5168 Blazer Parkway
 
Dublin, Ohio 43017
 
Phone 614-923-5260
 
Fax  614-793-0608
 
Jcole@commandalkon.com

Cardinal Joe

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Re: herreshoff 18'
« Reply #972 on: March 16, 2013, 03:51:05 PM »
The H-18 catboat - purchase above by Jim Cole <jcole@commandalkon.com> is an " AMERCIA " ....... , an NOT a PILOT Model .......

Adam

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Re: herreshoff 18'
« Reply #973 on: March 16, 2013, 06:06:21 PM »
The molds for the America are owned by Com-PAC yachts. It was used to make their  (highly modified) "Horizon cat". My understanding is they are in very bad shape and could not be used again. There is a fairly large support community for the America and things like templates for rudder and centerboard are readily available. Marshall Marine (Marshall Cats) has been known to support some custom items like Masts and rigging as well. And don't forget the original designer - Herreshoff Designs.

http://www.com-pacyachts.com/trailerable-catboats/horizon-cat.html

http://www.marshallcat.com/

http://herreshoffdesigns.com/
« Last Edit: March 16, 2013, 06:09:03 PM by Adam »

Cardinal Joe

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Re: herreshoff 18'
« Reply #974 on: March 18, 2013, 04:34:44 PM »
Adam - Thanks for your input ...... Greatly Appreciated !  :)